The Westboro Baptist Church is infamous for its protests against the funerals murdered homosexuals and American soldiers who have died in Afghanistan or Iraq. They are a hateful bunch whose "Christian faith" is just a thin covering for their unadulterated bigotry. In fact, there is nothing Christian at all and in this latest interview, one of their leaders revealed that they are guilty of several major sins against the triune God of Israel.
Phelps-Roper: "You're proud. You're proud of your sins. You can't do enough sinning. You think 'gay' pride, bimbo. You have sinned away your day of grace."
Oh really? "Sin away your day of grace?"
28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."-John 10
Why does this point matter? It is heresy. Literal heresy. Scripture reveals that someone who has been given over to Christ may not abandon Christ. "Once saved, always saved" for the person who has genuinely confessed Christ. It is not possible to sin away the grace that God has given to someone who has been saved because they are no longer an unregenerate sinner.
Does God hate fags? Of course not, he hates the sin. How do we know that God loves sinners even while they sin? Let's see what the Apostle Paul said about God's committment to saving sinners, even while they do not know that they are sinners.
>6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
It was through Christ's death and resurrection that the human race was able to repent before almighty God in the first place. There is no difference between a homosexual and an adulterer or a fornicater. Sexual sin is sexual sin. In fact, one of the greatest lies pushed by groups like these and anti-Christian secularists is that the Bible teachs that being a homosexual is a sin. The sin is in the act, and a homosexual who repents and avoids homosexual sex will find the grace before God that an unrepentent fornicater will not. Temptation, which is what being a homosexual is, is not itself a sin. A homosexual who repents and leads a homosexually chaste life will not be counted as a sinner on the day of judgement.
There are other problems too with this group. They freely work against the Great Commission. We are told to go out and make disciples of all nations, but their purpose seems to be to actively fight the conversion of unrepentant Americans. Why, it's almost like their goal is to actually aid the devil's attacks on American culture instead of fighting them. A very curious position for a disciple of Christ to take, isn't it?
Paul writes on allowing sin to increase:
1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
What they are doing is encouraging a sinful state for America by fighting against the conversion of ordinary Americans. Romans 1:32 has a very clear take on what will happen to those who fight for and encourage a general increase in sinful behavior.
The point about not sending her sons to fight for the United States because it is sinful is not a Bible-backed teaching. The army of the Roman Empire was full of Christians before Constantine converted, and the Centurion in Luke 7 was never asked to leave his post as a Roman officer. In fact, Jesus commended him as he was saying "I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel."
To any non-Christians who are angry at this group and feel that they represent Christianity in any way, I encourage y'all to ask yourselves the following questions:
- What sort of Christian is gleeful at the destruction of his or her enemies?
- What sort of Christian fights tooth and nail to see the Great Commission undermined, especially in their own country?
- What sort of Christian freely tears up core doctrines and rewrites them to get a leg up in a pissing match on television?
- What sort of Christian celebrates the deaths of brothers and sisters in Christ just as gleefully as he or she celebrates the deaths of non-believers?
Stop the ACLU.
Mudville Gazette.
Barking Moonbat Early Warning System.
Michelle Malkin.
spot on, MikeT...there is so much wrong with the American Christian Church, but this is one issue that I find myself continually discussing with other Christians, namely that we should be INVITING homosexuals to church rather than SHUNNING them through ridiculous rhetoric...case in point is the hopelessly pointless and damaging Gay Marriage Amendment...all in the name of Christ...heresy, indeed...
And the irony is that the marriage amendment won't do anything for the tens of thousands of couples that will get divorced or consider it this year. Till death do us part has come to mean "till the death of the chemical high from initial infatuation do us part."
yep, and, of course, which gender is it that takes action based largely on emotion and has the law stacked in its favor with respect to divorce? quite a system to decimate the family unit, wouldn't you say? of course, the globalist puppet masters are just fine with a Gay Marriage Amendment because, after all, which party would receive the legal benefit of the doubt? the whole nasty scheme might be exposed and changed...
I have to give them credit where credit is due. A lot of men today don't even try to be men except by getting a lot of pussy. I'm not saying that it's right how often women initiate divorce, but as I try more and more to buck the trend, I notice how few men even try these days. Surely that has had a deleterious impact on how a lot of women out there view men.
The good part is that the Gay Marriage Amendment was defeated and now the issue of separating state and marriage can be debated in earnest. Though something tells me that the public will want it to remain between a man and a woman--and the voting public.
Oh, and this about the Marriage Amendment -- that "mixing of the set-apart and profane" where the "lord of this world" and his subject government takes it upon himself to redefine, and thus blaspheme, what God created - because God's definition of marriage just isn't good enough for Big Brother:
"As it was in the days of Noe" - they did exactly that. God's promise not to send another Flood doesn't rule out Fire...
Well, MikeT, I'd have to weigh in and say only partial agreement on this one -- not with respect to the slime-throwing on TV, which somehow reminds me of Bonesmen debating who is the better "christian" -- but the "one saved, always saved" error.
I'd have to say that one strikes me a bit like pre-trib rapture - too convenient, and not really supported by Scripture.
Some counterexamples - "work out your salvation with fear and trembling", the fact that blasphemy of the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spririt) is NOT acceptable (a single explicit counterexample which disproves the assertion), and Yeshua's clear warning (the most dire in the Word) that "many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord -- have we not [done all these things in Your Name...to which He replies...] I never knew you!"
My own understanding is that 'once saved - always' is too pat, and leads to complacency, even lethargy. "Fear God, and keep His commandments!" is more apropos, as is "If you love Me, keep My commands," so we can be known by our fruit.
Mark, yes, we must always be vigilent in our walk, lest we be led astray by the evil one...the leftist agenda of the many Christian sects and denominations is enough evidence of that truism:
http://www.episcopalchurch.org/documents/proposed_legislation_AResolutions-2006.pdf
Mark,
I lean a little toward the Calvinist side because I have seen enough of TULIP around me and in me. Before I was saved, I couldn't actually conceive of Christianity being true. Now, I can't conceive of it not being true. Well, technically I can, but it genuinely feels absurd. Before I was saved, it was the exact opposite. I don't know if I chose it or not, but here I am, though it didn't feel totally voluntary.
Both views of faith have their ups and downs. I see a fatalism in myself and other calvinist-leaning Christians sometimes, and I see an extreme arrogance toward sinners like homosexuals from many of those who are rabid "free willers." I don't think it ultimately matters.
Good post Mike.
And I have to disagree with Mark and I will use his own scripture references against him. ;)
“one saved, always savedâ€Â
I fully agree with this.
“many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord  have we not [done all these things in Your Name…to which He replies…] I never knew you!â€Â
Pretty clear, those that SAY "Lord" aren't necessarily His. Nor were they ever.
Notice He clearly says "I NEVER knew you!"
Not that I once did and now forgot, but that I never, ever, ever knew you!
And as to the fear thing; the fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of wisdom.
Not a bad place to start.
But did you ever read 1John 4:18
"Perfect love drives out all fear"
I know that none of us are there yet. But I do get glimpses now and then, and it will be glorious.
I respect your opinion on the faith Mark, but if you show me verses, I can show you the flip side all the way through.
When it all comes down, do you obey out of fear or out of love?
Roland -
I don't disagree with those comments as you might suppose; in fact, I have pointed out the "NEVER" in Yeshua's warning as well, and share that interpretation.
Furthermore, "fear" of G-d is a far different thing than the type of fear which is Satan's primary weapon; not to be confused. I suspect we are in agreement on that score.
(And how do you KNOW you are "saved", once or otherwise, in light of these warnings, and without being "puffed up" in pride? Rhetorical question, of course...)
Finally, "fear not" is certainly the most-repeated command in Scripture, and disarms the Adversary of that primary weapon. "Perfect love casts out fear..." and He has not "given us a spirit of fear, but of power, and love, and a sound mind."
All of this is why I started the list with "work out [your salvation with] fear and trembling" - as a faithful servant respects his Master.
Absolutely - read the Biblical strictures about slavery (decidedly "not-PC", but VERY Biblical). Bottom line is to say "I love my Master," and will serve in His house forever.
MikeT- I'm not much (or any, I guess) of a Calvinist. After all, someone can always say [later] -- well, OBVIOUSLY, so-and-so was never saved...
Becomes a cheap circular argument, and not much good for guidance.
At least for me, I find Yeshua's warnings a good lesson in humility, or "teachable-ness". Pray to be "counted worthy", protected, "delivered from evil", and written in that Book of Life...
To defend the side you point out Mark, you wrote:
'Pray to be “counted worthyâ€Â, protected, “delivered from evilâ€Â, and written in that Book of Life'
Didn't someone in the OT write something about not blotting his name out of the Book of Life?
Of course, you could then make an assumption that God made everyone and all should be in it...
Hi All,
Ok, on the Calvinist thing, I too am mostly Calvinist in my leanings, but, I do believe that you can get to the end of your life and lose the salvation that was given to you. Roland knows what verses I use, and since it would take quite a while to look through all of my notes on the subject I will just make a couple of quick points.
1: Hebrews 6:1-8 is clear that we cannot return to salvation. Jesus cannot die again for us, His sacrifice was good enough the first time.
2: The last two verses in James are written to the Brethren, those who are in Christ, and seem to state that one can lose salvation.
So, my opinion, God is always working in you to keep you for Him. He will work in you until the day you die. If you will not live for the God you have said to serve, He will say that He never knew you at all!
On Gay Marriage, I think Christians need to get one thing straight when dealing with any sin. If you are guilty of even one point of the law, you are guilty of all of it. Therefore, you are just as guilty of Homosexuality as the ones who are actively participating in it, and they are just as much in need of Christ as you were before you knew Him. Perhaps you would be better served by giving introductions instead of judgements.
Joel
Visarian,
I think that there is a lot more to Hebrews than a little sin. God would have made us able to be perfect if He wanted us to never sin again. I think it is referring to a complete walking away like a stubborn "f$5^ you, Jesus you can talk your salvation and shove it up your ass" and then a sincere walking away.
As to Phelps and co., their kind are the reason why I tell others we're not a theocracy. Under a theocracy, I think most conservative denominations would have them hung for blasphemy of the highest order.
You're 100% right. And since we will know them by the fruit they bear, allow me to suggest that the lack of grace they demonstrate towards others betrays the lack of grace in their own lives. They are to be pitied, and their teaching is to be denounced.
Excellent post, Mike.
You're right about the verse from Hebrews, MikeT- Visarian was misreading it, then leaping to a bogus conclusion.
The analogy is the parable of the man who prays that he's not as evil as the other REALLY bad guy over there. Righteousness as "filthy rags" (actually the Hebrew really refers to menstrual rags) is the understanding.
Bottom line: it is the concept of JUSTIFICATION under "the Law" rather than through Him, which is the issue.
But should we sin more that grace might abound? God forbid...
Thanks, Wes. These guys really drive me up the wall. As much as I lean libertarian, there is part of me that would love to see these guys put on trial before the catholic body of believers from all denominations for truly "treasonous" blasphemy against our King. If they were ever part of the catholic body, they are traitors now and deserve a traitor's welcome in every church.
I don't think it should be just denounced, but rather we should use everything but a direct assault on the first amendment to silence them. I've said before that free speech exists outside the church, but sometimes the church has to silence these sorts of people. I think that trying to bankrupt them by funding any lawsuit by grieving families against their funeral protests and passively, but aggressively, keeping the media away from them maybe necessary if we are to quickly and non-violently end their blasphemy.
"...[not] just denounced, but rather we should use everything but a direct assault on the first amendment to silence them..."
Mike -- that reminds me. As bad as these folks (both sides of the faux-christians on Fox, for example) - the ones that REALLY do the harm via rotten fruit are the GWB-Bones-Xtians. [note use of X to indicate replacement of Yeshua via an obvious false 'christ'.]
The "faith-based" initiative, designed to corrupt via Caesar's mammon, and replace God's teachings -- and His priesthood -- with Big Brother Adversary's, is one of the most evil fruit imaginable. "My people" truly "are destroyed for lack of knowledge".
Being libeled by association with the GWB type of 'Xtian' will ultimately do us all far more harm than will comparison with the Westboro or Branch Davidian type.
PS> The "First Amendment" never was intended to apply to any of the People God created; that's "We". It was a specific prohibition on the central government from doing EXACTLY what it does today !@#! Ultimately the only speech that will be prohibited is speaking the Word, or against the ruler of THIS world.
Actually, I don't think that the GWB types are any worse. It's a "good cop, bad cop" scenario. You have the wild-eyed nutjobs on the one side playing the bad cop and the faux-Christians on the other side who play the good cop.
On many levels, I think that the real church and non-Christians will suffer because of this. The GWB types will ruin the liberties of the public and drive our economy into the ground, while running the government haphazardly. Bush is now renewing his anti-porn campaign when the threat from them thar terrists is at an all time high thanks to our actions in Iraq that have emboldened Iran.
Both orthodox Christians and non-Christians will suffer equally on the liberty side as the "good cops" use the "bad cops" as an excuse to crack down and regiment society. Then we'll suffer even more by association when the non-Christians get justifiably pissed off at the GWB types, but fail to realize that we don't like them either.
Btw, did you know that according to polls done, America is only 11% orthodox Christian?
You all are giveing these miscreants way too much credit. They are a cult, not a church. Thier members are all in just two families. (only a mater of time before they are related by marriage too). Their "theology" is "based on christianity", but without the substance, just like hollywood movies are "based on real events".
Their 15 minutes of fame was over months ago.
re: too much credit.
That is the POINT, roci -- neither the "good" or the "bad" cops, as Mike calls them, are anything but evil bookends of an anti-Christ (ultimately pagan worshipping) pack-of-lies.
But Mike makes again the main point I was trying to -
REAL followers of the True Messiah will be "demonized" (irony noted) with guilt-by-association. As far as the atheist/tree-hugger/pagan crowd are concerned, Bush is 'christian', and so are we, because he calls himself one.
I regard the Bush and other faux-xtian types as 'the worst' simply because the media will remember THAT association long after the Westboro-cultists are forgotten.
Roci,
They become just another entry on the list of pseudo-Christian extremist groups that the media can say that we are sympathetic to. Given that only 11% of the population can be legitimately called born again Christians, we have to be careful.
What is disturbing about this group is that their 15 minutes of fame is NOT up. They have been in the media ever since Matthew Shepherd (sic?) was murdered. I think they protested his funeral because they made headlines first back then, that's how I found out about them.
Check this out if you have any doubts that they are antichrists. I have never met a Calvinist in my life who could stand these types or who would find anything remotely based on Calvin in their works and teaching.
Mike, I am truly impressed. 25 comments.
I think you hit a nerve.
Those people are the ones that have forgotten their first love. (If they ever had it, that is)
I got somewhere around 30-40 on that post about childless people. This hasn't hit record yet. My last post about MySpace is still getting them as well.