And the cultural libertarians wonder why many political libertarians are not enthusiastic about open borders and easy immigration:
Egyptian blogger Abdel Kareem Soliman was sentenced to four years in prison yesterday in a Cairo court. He will sit in jail for three years for the crime of "contempt for religion" and one year for "insulting the president".
For those of you who haven’t been following the case, welcome to the Middle East. They do indeed have crimes like that around here.
Almost as disturbing as the sentence was the public reaction. As the court hearing ended, the media moved to the street in front of the courthouse and started interviewing people about what they thought of the trial. With the exception of human rights activists and bloggers, the Egyptian public seemed satisfied with the verdict, if not disappointed it wasn’t longer.
Many people expressed the view that Abdel Kareem should be killed for what he wrote, and each of them shared their preferred way to kill him: stabbing, hanging, and of course, the classic beheading. One actually asked a lawyer if it was legal to now kill him, since this verdict clearly brands him as an apostate, and the Sharia punishment for an apostasy is death. People were talking about killing him in the most casual manner, as if he was no longer a human being to them.
Cases like this are truly eye-opening in that they can essentially damn an entire country aside from its (classical) liberal exceptions. It's not as though the Egyptian government is being propped up by American military power the way that the Warsaw Pact states were by the Soviet Army; the internal struggle in Egypt is largely between secular totalitarians and religious totalitarians. Just reading those popular opinions and the way that they were expressed should make any libertarian nauseated at the thought of allowing many of them to not only come to their country, but gain voting rights.
It's very simple. If you import thousands or more of immigrants from collectivist countries, you will be brining in thousands of collectivists into American society. Cultural libertarians have a socialist-like inability to learn from history on this count. As the demographics of America changed through mass immigration in the past, the political culture changed as well. That happened because immigrants do not simply abandon all of the habits of their old culture as a general rule.
For the sake of liberty, we should close our national door off to countries like Egypt and other countries like it. Whatever economic input Egyptian immigrants would contribute to our economy will be negated by the collectivist mentality that they will bring with them.
(sigh) It's always something.
Your posting was nonsensical and to paint every Egyptian with such a bigoted brush is completely unenlightened. We can certainly allow talented and productive Egyptians into America who pose no more threat than any other nationality. In fact better integration and understanding of different peoples can be a benefit to peace.
You know, I was going to respond to the rest of your post, and then it occurred to me that you hadn't actually read it, so I couldn't respond to what you said anymore than a batter can hit a ball when the pitcher turns around and throws the ball outside the stadium. Had you read what I wrote, you would have seen that I acknowledged that not all Egyptians are like that. You would have also seen that my concern is that whatever economic good they'd bring would be negated by the statistical likelihood that they'd support some sort of authoritarian political platform when they become American citizens, and that I do not think it is good for America to import citizens from a country that has barely any liberal political activity. Why? You talk about integrating, and my friend, people who come from a country like that are not likely to integrate in the way you are expecting them to.
I did read your entire posting. I also lived and traveled recently extensively in the Middle East (including Egypt) for six years, and have some sense of these people that you seem not to have.
And to make such unsupported statements as, "the statistical likelihood that they'd support some sort of authoritarian political platform when they become American citizens" does little to inform the conversation.
See, there can be no "informed conversation" when you stick to such ideological notions as automatically calling my opinion a bigoted one because I am in favor of generally ending immigration from collecitivist countries. You assume that I hate them, which I do not; I merely do not want people from failed, authoritarian states to bring that crap to my country. America should not be the world's safety valve. Hell, that's a large part of the reason the Mexican ruling class has been able to avoid domestic reforms that would make greater participation in the economy possible.
Immigration should be based on a case-by-case evaluation. Arbitrary closing of our borders to immigrants based solely on their country of origin is an unfair and discriminatory policy.
A broader look at how much immigration America can or should absorb and the criteria for selection is valid. Even here, I see no reason to exclude automatically immigrants from Egypt or any other country.
I agree that it should be done on a case-by-case basis. However, in practice that is not the way that it is done. Our government really doesn't seem to give a crap about who comes here anymore, as witnessed by its total failure to control our borders. A case-by-case approach would work if our government cared enough to screen out undesireables such as members of the ruling party and the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. If it did that, then I would agree with you, but since it doesn't really try to screen out such people, that's why I take the "better safe than sorry" approach.
I'm just not an idealist in general when it comes to politics. I base a lot of my views on what my government will actually do here and now, not on a theoretical federal government could, would and should do. Since my government no more cares about systematic infiltration of American Islamic institutions by Whabis funded by Saudi Arabia than it cares about the flood of illegal immigrants, I have no reason to assume it would ever care to evaluate the average person except after the fact *cough*in court*cough*.
I appreciate that we seem to have an area of agreement that case-by-case analysis of immigrant applications is preferred.
I have a close friend of several years who happens to be Egyptian. I can personally vouch for him. But he has been unable to even gain a visa to visit the United States. I think the hurdles to legal immigration are more onerous than you imply – especially for applications from Islamic or Arabic countries.
I do take some exception to your characterization of “our governmentâ€ÂÂ, not that I’m not critical of the government myself. My point of view is that we are the American government – we the people elect these politicians who frame the policies. And I prefer to direct the criticism at ourselves for our lack of taking on the mantle of personal responsibility in our government that democracy implies. Only 3% of the electorate participated in the last primary held in Virginia. That’s a fact. And few can name their county supervisor or have been to a board of supervisors meeting or can even name their delegate to the legislature or their Congressman.
Into this vacuum steps incompetent and opportunistic career politicians and narrowly focused interest groups. That, in my opinion is what is wrong with our government.
I am much more cynical myself because I see a feedback cycle between the size of government and the vested interests trying to keep the power growing. Few activist groups of any kind will go quietly into the night if and when the public starts to demand a retreat of government from public life, more accountability from the government and a more focused policy directed by better--sorry, actual--leaders. The only path to reform that I see is electing people who are of a libertarian persuasion.
May I join this debate??? First I would like to ask if either of you are native american? And no I am not. If not then we all are here because of one of three reasons. Avoiding taxes (which in america is illegal), wanting freedom of religion (which our government does not even recognize unless it is one of the top 4), and the convicts that other countries in the world did not want so sent here to die. That makes us a country of the biggest mess of mixed hatred there could be before we even were born. If your families immigrated later then it was probably to try to create a better life for their families (which you seem to enjoy as you are computer literate). Before we keep stereotyping everyone else in the world maybe we should realize that america only tells these people what propaganda we wish them to know. That is why they believe things like all american women are whores and every one in america is rich. It is about time we start looking in our own back door yards and cleaning up the messes we have made of our own country before we continue to stick our "unwanted" and usually unneeded noses where it does not belong. I didn't know that god really died in the 60's when it was splashed all over as a anti-war protest and left everyone in this country free to act and judge as if they themselves were God! What skeletons do you have in your closets? Remember the adages - people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones? and Unless your whites are impeccable don't hang them on the clothesline for everyone to see. Think maybe I made my point. It's time we realize god gave us the earth (not just when we think of greenpeace) but all the time in all ways. There should be no borders or (sorry) nor presidential dictators that wish to rule the world. It is time all nations realize when we bleed, we all bleed red. As for religions that is everyones given freedom and our government was originally founded on that yet we stick our noses into every religious uprising there is as if we are trying to keep "The Crusades" going longer than the fact that they ended many hundreds of years ago. Religion and government need to catch up with the times. The fact is that religious wars could end the existence of our entire planet thanks to nuclear war possibilities. If we wish to stay alive as a country
stop closing people out and telling them they aren't as good as the country that was started on illegality in the first place.
The only governments that possess the means to unleash that horror on mankind are profoundly secular governments. If they ever end up in a religious nuclear war, chances are it will because some backward craphole like Iran decided to lob a city buster into one of their backyards. Even France is on record saying that if Tehran ever pulls a stunt like that, the French armed forces will be delivering a few choice tactical nukes into the heart of Iran or whoever else launches such an attack on them.
Today, the great threat is Islam, a religion which in its scripture preaches violent expansion. If you read the Bible, you will see condemnation by prophets and Jesus of things like forced conversions. However, Mohammed and his followers have embraced that. It is not religion, but rather one religion, Islam, that would try to cause the horrors that you worry about.
First it is the narrow-minded, horse's ass, blindered people like you that keep the world in an uproar. You are the perfect example of "don't know the facts but, flap your gums" bull shit that will cause this world to disintegrate. Islam is not the problem, as your bible is based on the same beliefs as theirs, until you start with the New Testament that tells you to push the "my Jehovah, only I am right" shit down everyone else's throat. I have read the Bible. I was raised baptist. Have you read the Koran or the Quaballah or any of the other basis for any of the other religions in the world? I have! First to settle this. They all believe in a creator. They all believe they answer only to God. What they do not believe in as you seem to think is that they need to shove their religion down someone else's throat by any means including violence. The people you are stereotyping as violent in the Islamic faith are not of the true Islamic faith of beauty and peace but a faction that is pissed off because americans stuck their noses where it didn't belong in the 1960's and took land (the gaza strip) from their country and handed it back to the isrealis because Kennedy thought he was God(and even he broke commandments - look at Marilyn Monroe), while the american people followed him like they will follow stupidity to the 666 apocolypse and right into the toilets of hell. There is a reason your bible calls people "sheep". Have you ever watched sheep? If one steps into a hole and breaks it's ankle the other are following the leader so closely they all step into the hole. That is the reason that sheep must be herded. If one walks to close to a cliff and falls over the others will do the same. Until americans realize they are not God and that God is not dead, then I guess we will just have to wait until another of the bloodiest wars in history happen under the name of Christianity. In the meantime, I am more afraid of people like you than I am of someone who practices a faith other than Christianity. It is funny that all the world destructive power and forces were built by the Christian based countries first. Wonder why that is? Maybe because they know they are not God in their hearts but are greedy self righeous assholes like you that are afraid that they will be proven wrong. It makes me long for the day when God does return and tells you all that you didn't learn a damned thing his messages were trying to teach you. Did you ever stop to think that there are many ways to say water in the world? It is so that it can be understood by all the different languages and cultures. But, it is still water. Maybe it is true of the ways to say God? Christians need to remember though shalt not kill, covet or bear false witness when they shove their religion down throats by means of violence and start killing and abusing others of God's children. And now to quote your own hypocritical backwards and back assed comments. " If you read the Bible, you will see condemnation by prophets and Jesus of things like forced conversions." Then why were the Crusades (as forced conversions) and all the other wars fought, telling the world believe as we do or we will kill you? Why is our nose only stuck into a fight when religion is at the root of the uprising? Why is it that we only acknowledge that there is bible thumping in the right wing when it seems to come from your left wing brain also? Who said that Americans were the sainthood? Why does everyone in the world have to believe as you? How many of the commandments, that even the Islamic people hold in their hearts, from Moses in the Old Testament have you broken with your writings and persecutions of God's children? And for the record I am not of the Islamic faith either. I am from another belief that is held down and told we are wrong, yet we do not condemn entire countries and their people for the narrow minded beliefs of the few. If we did then we would think that americans are all idiots like you.