I'm reposting/continuing this argument here for the sake of others who may not visit Difster's blog:
God created the physical laws of the universe and I don't believe that he can break those laws (or won't). Whatever miracles the Bible lists or that you might have personally witnessed have a scientific explanation for them. They are still miracles but God sticks to His boundaries in performing them.
How then did God impregnate Mary without violating all kinds of laws of the universe? First of all, just like the rest of us, Jesus has a body and a spirit. So, all God had to do is rearrange some of the existing matter in Mary to fertilize an egg just like he created Adam from the dust of the Earth. After/During the fertilization (I can't even speculate on the timing) God imbued the egg with the spirit of Jesus. Thus, Jesus was given his human body.
I don't think you can really argue that God made a claim to treat the laws and processes of nature in the same way as the revealed Law. In fact, there are a few examples that immediately come to mind to suggest that God has a tendency to dramatically screw with the workings of nature to achieve his goals. The ones that come to mind are the flood, the pillar of fire that lead the Israelites through the desert, and the death and resurrection of Jesus. Let's face it, a self-sustaining, spontaneously created thermal reaction in the middle of nowhere that moves with distinct purpose through a particular path with intelligent purpose is not a natural phenomenon. For that matter, neither is it naturally possible for a man to be brought back to life three days after rigor mortis has set in and decomposition has begun.
I'm inclined more toward your view of this than Difster's, though I thought his take was interesting. As I said at his blog, bringing a deceased person's spirit back into his/her body requires more than manipulating nature's laws; it demands their breaking. There's nothing natural about coming back to life after having been dead.
Oh, I have I got a good answer for you and Wes coming up tonight on my blog. :)
I'm going to go in a slightly different direction with this and suggest that God cannot "violate" nature's laws because He created and sustains them. By that I mean He owns them. He can do whatever He wants with them because they belong to Him. It's not a violation of any sort when He decides to suspend or alter their usual course, be it gravity, life and death, molecular density, whatever.
Difster,
It had better be a damn good explanation because I would like to see you explain some of those miracles in the Old Testament...
I think your end argument is presumptuous, as you are assuming both rigor mortis and Decomposition has set in.
Obviously not a huge jump but a significant event that may not have even taken place.
It's not beyond medical history, for an individual to display all the characteristics of death and still not be dead.
Sure up until the Victorian Era there was often people being misdiagonsed dead and only coming back to "live" days later.
Now I'm not trying to add reason to an argument, that I for one can't conclude to be true but you do jump from him dying (according to scriptures) to him actually decomposing.
I must admit I'm not theologian and studying religious scriptures isn't a past time of mine but the last argument is a jump.
Well, I think it's a good assumption considering the fact that according to the records we have Jesus was scourged, crucified, stabbed in the side with a spear and pronounced dead by a Roman executioner. Even if he didn't die from that, it would be physically impossible to survive that much violence toward your body, while being locked away in a tomb for three days without food, water and even basic medical treatment like washing off wounds.
Yea it's an assumption that in the majority of cases would lead to the correct conclusion.
However this scenario isn't the majority of cases, this is one case of one individual who is meant to be the direct descendant of God. Now in infinite wisdom it would by no means be hard to "cheat" the characteristics of death although sustaining free will.
And with Jesus as a follower to his commands, God could easily create a snowball effect that would lead to the end conclusion.
Now by no means can I provide an actual explanation on how Jesus could survive such a thrashing but on Cheating Death, I just don't think it's a forgone theory but not necessarily the correct one.
God could cheat death easily, however God clearly allowed his son to die on the cross. In fact, the record on that part is pretty clear that Jesus died. It was the death that paved the way for the resurrection.
I think the simpler explanation in cases like this, is that Difster is wrong ;)
I have long referred to this principle by the whimsical acronym MNM, for Minimum Necessary Miracle - meaning whatever God decides is necessary.
When He wanted to make a big point, splitting the sea and a column of fire was the issue. I have personally witnessed a number of them in my own life, but all fit the parameters of not violating his own Law - be it moral, or physics.
(On a related note, I've seen some interesting hypotheses, from Velikovsky to Planet X, that postulate how He might employ celestial objects according to His purposes.)
What about Lazarus, was he also not completely dead? (read John 11) :) Being an engineer myself, as well as both my parents and my grandfather, I have often heard God being called the Master Engineer. I think this totally fits, however I do not believe that God is bound by the laws of physics. Here on earth many scientific principles and formulas are based on time. Time means nothing to God. God is also a spirit; some have explained that He exists in the fourth dimension, and so on. Science can come up with some decent explanations for many of the stories in the Bible such as the flood, the parting of the Red Sea. I think faith though is what is at the basis of Christianity, and to try to scientifically explain all the miracles of Christ and of the Old Testament, trivializes God, to some degree. Christ had to die, if He was not dead, He would not have overcome death, which is so important (see Hebrews 2:14) in being the blow to Satan, who had the power of death over us, until Christ. Christ had to have died and be resurrected. What about when Jesus fed the five thousand (which only counted the men) with a few small loaves of bread and two fish (see Matt 14)? I believe that God has the power to do whatever He wants, He made our universe out of nothing - He said it, it happened, and I would like to point out the Law of Conservation of Matter/Mass - matter cannot be created nor destroyed, it can change form, but it never is created nor destroyed - and if you try to argue that God's energy was changed into the universe, is His energy finite? No, then it starts to get even more frustrating to define scientifically. Jeremiah 32:27 says "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?" Just take it on faith people. I just don't think that God could be bound by the laws of Physics; it just doesn't make sense, just as I do not believe that He bound to logic, which I would rather not go into right now. The only thing that God CANNOT do is sin. Also, I would love to hear how Christ turned water into wine though a series of scientific experiments. :)
Also, please explain Joshua 10:13. God made the sun and the moon stayed - doesn't sound like obeying the laws of physics.
Also, please explain Joshua 10:13. God made the sun stand still and the moon stayed - doesn't sound like obeying the laws of physics.
Only hit the post key once, move your cursor away, you're double posting by accident, no doubt ;)
I love being a smart ass!
Wonder Woman,
As you will see, the posts are different. So, who's the smart ass?