The one thing I have never seen an atheist be willing to contemplate is "what if I am wrong, and there is a God and this God is just like the God of Israel?" Maybe the thought is just too scary because I have yet to see any atheist talk about that possibility, though I have seen people talk about what would happen if they came to have good reason to believe that their faith was based on something that didn't exist.
There is a lot of crap in the media. No, scratch that. The media is crap. The thing that has made me come to truly loath the mainstream media is the way that it acts like agents of chaos. It agitates and screws with people like in the case of Rodney King (total jackass of a human being right there) and the Duke (non-)rape case, but it is silent in the case of this guy, where the cops actually murdered an unarmed man and in murder cases like this which might offend racial sensitivities in the "wrong way." They're like traffic cops; always there to create trouble, never seem to be there to prevent trouble.
It's scary how much I agree with this post from Vox's blog. In fact, I have been thinking more and more like that, which is part of the malaise that has been happening here. I've basically come to accept the fact that most people are barely sentient and incapable of logic or changing their beliefs when confronted with hard truth. That, and I've been trying to avoid reading the news because I already have enough to be depressed about, since much of my day to day work consists of maintenance coding...
And on that note, all I can say is we have officially 4 months, 9 days now before the productivity of all sectors dependent on young male labor take a nosedive.
Atheists are rarely impressive in their arguments. I've yet to come across one of their arguments which hasn't been firmly rebutted.
As for most people being barely sentient, I agree. Thinking is hard work so most avoid it.
I can agree with you. Nice to know there is another thinking rational human being left in this country. And to find two in the same place - miraculous!
I can agree with you. Nice to know there is another thinking rational human being left in this country. And to find two in the same place - miraculous!
I don't have a console. Even H2 never made it to PC. I have no broadband. I have nothing to live for. I may as well go to work.
When I have days like that, it makes me feel better to think that we're all human, so I can't be the LAST non-moron. We share species, and when you're talking about America, we live in the same country with similar sources of information and similar experiences; so there's got to be one out of every hundred or so people who actually uses their God-given brains.
Huh. Maybe one out of every thousand. Nonetheless...
Actually, Halo 2 did make it out for PC. The catch is, it is only for Windows Vista.
Hm. Atheists have beliefs so strong that they won't admit the possibility of error.
Hadn't thought of that before. Thanks.
The catch is, it is only for Windows Vista
That must be why I never heard of it.
General rule: never upgrade an operating system. Better off just getting a new computer with new OS installed and certified t work with all installed components by the builder.
According to the website. It still has not been released for PC.
"The one thing I have never seen an atheist be willing to contemplate is "what if I am wrong, and there is a God and this God is just like the God of Israel?"
That's because it's a pointless thought exercise. You would then have to go through an entire round of every god that ever existed: "what if there is a God, and it's Zeus?", "what if there is a God, and it's Quetzalcoatal?", "what if there is a God, and it's Shango?" This would be a tedious waste of time, so why would one do it?
But let's do the thought exercise. Tell me, what if there is a God, and it is the God of the Bible?
"Thinking is hard work so most avoid it"
Avoiding "it".
La, la, la...
Merkur,
I leave that question up to you, since you seem to be an atheist where I am not. I am soliciting your opinion and that of other atheists, not providing my own. What would you do if suddenly you realized that everything the Bible said was true? Surely you can provide some idea as to how that would make you feel about the way the world really is.
"What would you do if suddenly you realized that everything the Bible said was true?"
But that's a completely different question to the one which you originally asked, which was
"What if I am wrong, and there is a God and this God is just like the God of Israel?"
Let me know which question you're asking, and I'll be able to answer the question.
Those two questions are intertwined, but for the sake of argument... "What if you realized that you were wrong and that the Bible was 100% true, that God of Israel does exist and is entirely like how the Bible describes Him?"
"What if you realized that you were wrong and that the Bible was 100% true, that God of Israel does exist and is entirely like how the Bible describes Him?"
This would place me in a difficult position. Which God would I be dealing with - the Old Testament God of wrath and command, or the New Testament God of love and sacrifice?
And yes, I know that you believe that they're the same, but unfortunately that doesn't make it true. But for the sake of argument, my answer is this:
It wouldn't make any difference at all; I would continue to live my life in the manner which I believe best serves my fellow man.
What do you think would happen next?
Merkur,
I take it you have not read much of the New Testament if you think that Jesus was not as wrathful as the "God of the Old Testament." One such example would be him saying that whoever rejects him stands condemned already before God, and that it would be better for Sodom and Gommorah on the day of judgment than for those villages that reject Him. Yet, you will also see in chapters like Isaiah 6 the same sort of teaching of forgiveness in the Old Testament that you see in Jesus' ministry. The God of Israel is a very complicated deity with a rich personality.
The question is, if you knew that this deity existed, would you follow His instructions, knowing that you were being taught by the Supreme Creator, the one being most likely to know what is the best way to keep human civilization functioning?
What instructions, Mike? What should I do differently from what I'm doing now?
Still waiting to know what I would be doing differently if God existed?
I don't know the answer to that because I don't know how you live your life. You didn't answer my question, though, which is if you knew the God of Israel was real, would you try to harmonize your life with His instructions (aka, the Bible)?
I think I've already answered your question, when I said that I would continue to live my life in the manner which I believe best serves my fellow man.
For some reason, you think I've a) never considered the possibility that I might be wrong (which I have) and that b) the reason for that it's just too scary for me (which it isn't).
I guess what I'm looking for is for you to explain is, what difference would it make if I was wrong, and why should I be scared? So far you haven't really answered those questions.
Merkur,
Perhaps this requires more of a real blog post to address. However, the question is would you contradict God in this scenario? If God, the Supreme Creator, says "this is the best way to do X" would you go against a perfect, omniscient, omnipotent being who created "X?" I wouldn't, on the grounds that the Supreme Creator knows best. I would try to harmonize my life and views with this being's every instruction, when said being provides instruction. Would you look at your views and change them where they contradict those held by God?
Also, I am only suggesting that it is scary because of the amount of backtracking you would have to do as an avowed atheist to accept the possibility that a religion might be entirely correct. My own background is that of a rather nihilistic agnostic before I came to Christ, so I can relate on the difficulty of owning up to the changes in one's views. I don't suspect that you would be afraid of God in the scenario I described because you would have verifiable evidence that didn't rely on faith, that God really does just expect you to more or less say you're sorry, submit to His son's rule and let God work through you to fix you.
"However, the question is would you contradict God in this scenario?... Would you look at your views and change them where they contradict those held by God?"
I would contradict absolutely contradict God if I believed that the "instructions" I was getting were morally wrong - for example, if God instructed me to kidnap, rape and murder an eight year old girl.
This raises the age-old question of whether things are good because God says they are so, or whether God says things are good because they are good in and of themselves.
"I am only suggesting that it is scary because of the amount of backtracking you would have to do as an avowed atheist to accept the possibility that a religion might be entirely correct."
Speaking personally, it wouldn't be scary in the least and there wouldn't be any backtracking involved. Atheism is the lack of a belief in god, and only very rarely the belief that there is no god.
"I don't suspect that you would be afraid of God in the scenario I described because you would have verifiable evidence that didn't rely on faith, that God really does just expect you to more or less say you're sorry, submit to His son's rule and let God work through you to fix you."
If I had verifiable evidence, then it wouldn't be faith, which by definition is belief without verifiable evidence. The problems I have with what you've just said are I have no idea what I'm supposed to be sorry for, I have no idea what "submit[ting] to His son's rule" means, and I have no idea what God would be trying to fix, and no real interest either.
The problem with your idea that morality is independent of God is that it means that there is a law that binds an all powerful being, something that is not a logically tenable position since we are talking about the God of Israel here, not a being from pantheon who makes no claim to omnipotence. If the God of Israel is real, then all morality is bound to his will because the God of Israel is omnipotent (go ahead and argue that point, but since it is a matter of faith, it's not something either of us can prove). However, the morality revealed by this god is unchanging, as stated by God in the Bible because "God is not a man, that he should change his mind." What that means is that you would never be asked to do something like the aforementioned order because it contradicts God's Law. There are other issues as well, such as how the effects of the law have been nullified in the death and resurrection of Jesus, which would also be true in this case, meaning that you would never be commanded by God to enforce the Mosaic Law on a criminal.
You are supposed to be sorry for the evil you have done. If you are not genuinely sorry for any of that, then it is unclear how you could claim to be any sort of decent person in the first place. Submitting to his son means confessing him as lord over you, and agreeing to follow his teachings/orders. As to fixing, there is the promise from God that his holy spirit would guide you from the inside to heal the damage of the evil you have done to make you a person who could reasonably live the life God wants of you. I've seen people drop serious addictions to things like nicotine, pornography and alcohol with God's help; much faster than I have seen people quit them on their own effort.
1. Doesn't address the underlying philosophical question of the nature of good versus the nature of God. You should know this - it's been an issue since Plato.
2. I'm unsure what 'evil' I have done.
3. I don't know what it means to accept Jesus as lord, since he's a dead historical figure, and I already try to follow his teachings.
4. As far as I can tell, I don't have that sort of 'damage' that needs fixing.
Not sure where to go from there.
1) "The Good" from the Christian perspective is God's nature, not an abstract set of philosophical rules. The basic teaching of Christianity here is that what is good is whatever God says it is, which is based on God's unchanging nature. There is also the teaching that humanity would not recognize true good in the form of holiness except where manifested by God himself.
2) Have you never even hurt someone outside of self-defense/speaking the truth about them or something they've done?
3/4) I would suggest that you read the New Testament to understand that. Part of the purpose of sending the Holy Spirit to you is to change your nature to bring you more in line with what God wants of your behavior. Another aspect of it is that the Holy Spirit is able to help you move away from hard to break habits like anger issues, sexuality issues and dependency on things like alcohol and drugs.
The first step toward accepting Christ is believing what the Bible says about who and what he was. From there you confess that he is lord over your life, and try to approach life from the way that he teaches.
If you are at all interested in understanding these things, if you seek, you will find. You have to look hard, but you will find him. I would suggest that you read the Torah, book of Isaiah and Gospels together because when you do, you will see that the "God of the Old Testament" is actually the same deity as the "God of the New Testament."
It may be harder for you to believe this stuff if you have never had any hard to explain, basically supernatural occurences in your life. I had quite a few during my agnostic days. I saw things which forced me to expand my definition of what can be lumped in with a "rational worldview." Your mileage may vary.
1. That's not a perspective shared by every Christian.
2. Not as far as I'm aware, although obviously it depends what you mean by "hurting" them, and I'm not sure how that actually relates to the metaphysical issue of evil.
3/4. Doesn't really help me.
Supernatural occurrences are usually just humans spotting patterns where none exist. We're predisposed to spot patterns, you see, and we try to explain them with all kinds of interesting theories. However I'd be interested to hear your experiences.
Well, it's late, so I don't have the energy to continue the philosophical part tonight (I just rmemebered your comment went unanswered). WRT my supernatural experiences, here are some:
1) When I was about 11, I was walking my dog late at night, and I saw what appeared to be a German Shepherd standing in the middle of a field. It was glowing bright blue and it seemed unphased by things like the wind wasn't blowing fur or anything. It was also not like shiny paint, but rather more like that was the natural color of the apparition.
2) When I was very little, I saw a humanoid figure, standing about seven to nine feet off the ground, looking into my window with perfectly circular, blood red eyes. Entirely red, no white, pupil, nothing.
3) In college, I was walking across the quad in the fall, and it was about sixty to sixty five degrees outside. Then, I felt cold chills, that were a good 30-40 degrees colder around my torso and shoulders, in a pattern that felt like I was being grabbed.
Those things happened before I was a Christian.
Without wanting to sound dismissive,
a) you have a vivid imagination, that interestingly plays on those "supernatural" experiences that are very common to westerners,
b) none of those things sound like a message from God, particularly a Christian God.