A thought on Romans 9

"The fact of the matter is that if God created someone like Pharaoh in such a way that he was locked into a path of sin from birth that lead to damnation, he would have a hard time explaining to Pharaoh why Pharaoh should go to hell."

Let's not place too much importance on Pharaoh. Pharaoh is just another man like me. I don't believe that God owes me, (or Pharaoh,) any sort of explanation for his sovereign work. Our purpose on this Earth is not about what we do and where we go when we die. The purpose is God getting all the glory. He is God and I am nothing. Pharaoh was nothing. The fact that I am destined for Heaven is only a bonus. One that I truly do not deserve.

I really believe that this issue goes even further than pre-destination. I don't see how someone can believe in the absolute sovereignty of God, but not believe in pre-destination on some level. Logic tells us that God can not accurately predict everything right down to the very end of this world as we know it, unless he is in absolute control of everything. Extend that line of thinking out a little further and we find ourselves with no reason to be encouraged in times of trial and tragedy. We always say that everything happens for a reason, but then turn around and deny God's complete sovereignty. If God was not behind what happened, how can there be a reason? It would have just been mere happenstance. (Is that a real word?)

Anyway, I'm just thinking out loud at this point.

Logic tells us that God can not accurately predict everything right down to the very end of this world as we know it, unless he is in absolute control of everything.

I am not arguing that God is not in control of all things at all time. Are you suggesting, as most Calvinists do, that if God doesn't act that he is not in control of everything? It's for that reason alone that I tend to find Calvinism laughable as a logical system. An omnipotent God is axiomatically an absolute sovereign; even when he chooses to not act, he maintains absolute control. Therefore there is no contradiction between God allowing people to choose Christ on their own, and God being an absolute sovereign. Their ability to choose is only one other expression of his sovereign will. Even God's inaction is an expression of his absolute sovereignty because behind the inaction is the ability to act absolutely.

Also, with respect to our purpose here, that is true. However, God's motivation for saving mankind was not so much his own glory, as his love for us:

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

I think John 3:16 is pretty clear that God sacrificed himself on the cross for our sake out of love, and that it is through that love he is glorified. Jesus said what does it profit a man to be kind to those who love him. It would profit God not at all (ie, not glorify him) to only sacrifice himself for his own glory. Rather, by sacrificing himself for his enemies' sake, he brought great glory to himself.

"Are you suggesting, as most Calvinists do, that if God doesn't act that he is not in control of everything?"

Honestly, I don't know very much about the calvinists, so I can't really speak to their point of view. Regardless, I am not suggesting that at all. I do wonder how we come to the conclusion that people choose Christ on their own when we have so many verses that seem to state otherwise.

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him..
-John 6:44

In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.
-Ephesians 1:11-12

Furthermore, Romans 3:11 tells us that "no man seeks God." So if we don't seek God, than that only leaves God seeking us.

Combine all that with our text where we find Paul writing "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?" and "What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath"prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory?" even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?"

So Paul asks if God has the right to make some with the purpose of being saved and some with another purpose. The obvious answer is yes, God does have that right. We also see that because God's wrath is real, and there are people who will be/are receiving that wrath, we have reason to give him glory for saving us, "the objects of his mercy."

As far as John 3:16 goes, lets be careful to interpret this verse in context with what the rest of the Bible tells us about God's character. God's love is not a big cosmic squish bear hug. It is a perfecting love. Through out the Bible we see God doing things that seem to us, not loving at all. (i.e. the great flood, sodom and gamora, and the countless slaughtering of old testament enemies.) why is it that we still count God as loving, even after reading those accounts, but not if he created someone with the express purpose of going to Hell?

Man I'm long winded. Sorry.

For the record, much like Triton, I believe there is a middle ground between Predestination and man's free will. I'm not sure where that middle ground is or how it is, but I think scripture teaches both doctrines. I'm taking a strong Predestination stand here for the sake of debate.

P.S. it's not fair that you can do that cool quote graphic and I can't. That gives you a certain amount of credibility right off the bat. :)

Wow! I need some free time to write my own belief on this. Work has been so insanely busy since I got back, I just don't have the time to organize my thoughts on this right now. Hopefully, I will get the time to come back to this soon! I don't want to miss out on this one!

Things I want to remember for later:

It is our Father's will that none should perish (2 Peter 3:9). So, my next question, can we go against the will of God? If everything happens exactly as our Father wills it, then none of us would be damned. I have a hard time believing that when Christ died for the ungodly (Romans 5, somewhere), that ungodly meant only those God forced to be saved were saved.

Mark 10 gives the story of the Rich Young Ruler. He was seeking but couldn't give up his wealth for eternal life. I am wondering if he wasn't seeking it was God seeking him out, what heppened, or was he not really seeking in Mark 10. Just curious. Is it possible that God seeks men out and they can choose to accept Christ or to walk away? Is that really predestination as we know it?

God knows what would happen to each of us given any set of circumstances. I love sci-fi, and often think of this idea as the parallel universes. God told Jeremiah in Jeremiah 1:5 that while he was being formed, before he was born, God knew him. I believe that God knows each of us. He knows each of our hearts and what each of us would do given any circumstance. God knew Job's heart, He knew exactly what Job would do while Satan destroyed his life - Job would not give up his faith.

God has known what we would choose, since the beginning. Time is relative, and our idea of time is irrelivant to God, who has been and forever will be - how does one measure that in time? You may think infinity is the answer, but have you ever put that in a physics calculation or in a calculator? It doesn't usually work out too well. :) Belief in God, is based on Faith alone, there is no physics eqution that proves His existance. Once when I was younger, I asked my pastor and my then science teacher (before I was homeschooled) how God saw things in time, if time didn't matter (oh, the things I used to think about - drove my parents nuts)? He actually had a description that I had never heard before and I love even to this day. His response was, God sees everything, we can't grasp how he sees things exactly, but picture time as a parade and picture God sitting on top of the tallest building, he can see the beginning and the ending of the parade. He sees everything all at once, but we are at the bottom of the building and so we only see what is happening in front of us and know what has already happened based only on memory (history). I responded jokingly that time, as we know it, seems so long, so that must be a really tall building and God must have super vision.

This is all I have for now, with my thoughts being kind of jumbled and trying to get my architecture design into code form for a deadline in a couple of weeks, but I do have a few other basic things I wonder about when it comes to predestination - but that is for another time. Hopefully, I can make more sense of all of this soon, but if you have been interested in reading it, hopefully you will get what I am pointing to.

Those were just the things you want to remember? I'm looking forward to the in depth post.

So when God created us, he knew if we would receive the gift of salvation. God created my mind body and soul. God created everything. He knew exactly what I would do when he created me but did not will it?

I don't know of any way around the idea that both doctrines must be true, (logically and scripturally.) Unexplainable but true. This is a tough subject.

why is it that we still count God as loving, even after reading those accounts, but not if he created someone with the express purpose of going to Hell?

Because in every other case, we can see that the people chose to bring those things on themselves. In fact, I have think based on what little we know about Sodom and Gamorrah that that they got precisely what they deserved at the time.

One of my biggest concerns is that in Ezekiel 18 it says that God takes no pleasure in the death of a sinner. If God then takes glory by destroying the objects of his wrath, I see a contradiction there as God is indeed deriving pleasure in the form of glory from the death of a helpless sinner.

Rather, the way that I have come to read Romans 9 is that God takes a great deal of time letting us build up the case against us, then hardens us into that path of self-destruction that we have chosen in advance. That is why I interpret the free will-predestination continuum through Romans 8:29 which implies that predestination came after foreknowledge of each and every one of us. If God knows each of us in advance, he would know who would heed the calling to come to him.

I would like to note in passing as well that Hebrews 6 provides a very damning bit of evidence that contradicts a lot of predestinationist thought:

4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

It is clear that we do have some control over the call itself as well. How this works out, we won't know until we are in heaven, however it is clear from Hebrews 6 that even the elect can choose ultimately to walk away from Christ. Clearly at some point we do have the freedom to deny Jesus and leave the body of Christ forever.

By the way, if you want to do a real quoted section, use <blockquote>

By the way, if you want to do a real quoted section, use blockquote

Sweet!
The question of if a Christian can lose his salvation might just be a different debate for a different day. I won't post my thoughts here, but if you'd like to read my arguments, you may find them here.

Oh please, not once saved always saved debate - Mike, stop it!

"God created everything. He knew exactly what I would do when he created me but did not will it?"

I would disagree with you here Timm. I don't mean to say that God doesn't know all things, but I think that God knows our path, no matter which way we choose. Like on a map, he knows all the streets and shortcuts and all, but thats not to say He knows which route we are going to take.

As far as predestination goes, I don't know that I believe it. Like that map illustration, He knows all the routes, but that doesn't mean He knows which way we are going to go. To that degree, He doesn't need us to say, win the battle over Satan, its not whoever has the most in the end wins.

"God created everything. He knew exactly what I would do when he created me but did not will it?"

Did he will the sin in your life? If he didn't will the sin in your life, then why do you assume he willed the rest of it?

This is why I go back to the free will-predestination hybrid theory. Why can't God instead of willing the path of your life, choose to intervene only to make it work within the larger picture of his plan?

I think in principal, you and I agree. We both see it as a "free will-predestination hybrid." We just place the emphasis on different sides of the line. Excellent discussion though. You've given me some thoughts to chew on for sure. Thanks!

I don't mean to say that God doesn't know all things... but thats not to say He knows which route we are going to take.

So your saying God doesn't know all things. I can't subscribe to that theory. sorry.

On a side note, I didn't get much accomplished at work yesterday because of this site. Nice work Mike. =)

I haven't had a chance to get back to this. My officemate/co-worker witnessed someone killed the night before last. He was in the car behind a guy who hit a girl as she jogged out into the middle of a busy intersection with her ipod on and didn't stop and there was no way for him to stop in time. When the guy who hit her and my co-worker got out of the car, she wasn't breathing and was pronounced dead when the rescue workers arrived. My officemate is a non-believer and it is a touchy subject because of his past and I am trying to be a witness as best I can. He is going through a lot of what ifs and could I have done more and he is really not handling it too well. The guy has also apparently been charged with manslaughter and my co-worker my have to testify. It has been a nightmare and he described her age by her clothing and her hair because her face was too messed up to tell.

I will just say a few things more about predestination. I believe that many people believe in predestination as a coping mechanism - but at the same time, that would place the blame on God for not saving someone. We are here and were created for the glory of God, and I think to say He chose for us, who would glorify him and who wouldn't, just doesn't make sense. That would defeat the purpose, in my opinion. God didn't create Adam and Eve to sin, they chose to disobey and humanity has paid the consequences. God is everywhere (omnipresent), is all knowing (omniscient) and all powerful (omnipotent) and of course He could make everything exactly how He wanted it, but that would make us nothing more than robots, with a pre-set program where we follow it without choice, nothing would be done against the will of God. But that would cause several problems.

First, it takes away the glory that God would receive. Would you be pleased with your robot child that did exactly what you wanted because you programmed it as such? No, you may be proud of your outstanding engineering acomplishment, but it is only doing what it was programmed to do. You would be far more pleased with a child who chose to listen and went off on their own and did what was right. Second, we could blame God on judgment day and God is perfect, blameless.

Pharaoh's heart was hardened by God, but I have to ask, would Pharaoh, who was known as the morning and the evening star (a -lowercase- god), really have accepted God for who He was if God hadn't hardened his heart? I doubt it, once again I reference the Rich Young Ruler story, pharaoh was a god. God knew it and hardened his heart for His purpose and took something awful and used it for His plan. It is really something to think about.

I am very disorganized and very emotionally worn right now. This thing with my office mate has made my heart cry out to God many times last night, I am exhausted. I think I have gotten most of what I wanted to across, maybe I will right a post about this some other day.

I think we can all agree to pray for you office mate and the friends and family of the jogger.