Reputation matters
When we squared off with Saddam Hussein in the first Persian Gulf conflict, many of his troops simply surrendered to our military. There was no fight, they just gave up. For much of our history, it would be largely unthinkable to do such a thing. To simply lay down your arms and surrendered would be a sign of cowardice and might, at the very least, prompt your enemy to decimate your people for not even trying to fight. But, for some reason the Iraqi troops felt confident that they would be well-treated by our military, in no small part because our military has (or is that "had") a reputation for being highly civilized in dealing with conquered, weaker enemies.
America has already lost a great deal of face because of its twentieth century antics. Ranging from abortive attempts at building an empire that have caused us lasting animosity in Latin America, to the number of shady dealings in the Cold War that rendered us hypocrites in many cases (supporting tyrants who were ostensibly anti-Communist being chief among them). Adding on the acceptability of torture to the list will only serve to muddy the waters even more between us and every tinhorn dictatorship. It's hard to take a state that tortures seriously when it lectures others on human rights abuse.
The balance of evidence shows that torture does not work. None of the "great" totalitarian states of the 20th century used it except to get forced confessions for political crimes. Clearly many people think it does, so why not bring it into all areas where it might save lives? Terrorists in the Middle East can't do a whole lot to hurt Americans at home, but murderers down the street can. If the threat that those terrorists pose, even though it is practically non-existent, justifies going down this path, then so do violent crimes.
Why would you not waterboard a teenage school gunman, if witnesses said he had an armed and dangerous accomplice who escaped, but would waterboard a gunman in Baghdad connected to a terrorist group? The advocates of torture have already shown their contempt for the constitution elsewhere, as many, perhaps the vast majority of them, support things like the unconstitutional and illegal detention of Jose Padilla without a trial. The "constitutional rights" excuse is not theirs to use anymore. Allowing them to use it is two steps away from allowing the devil to quote scripture in his defense.
I know that comparison will seem extreme to a number of people. If they stopped to reflect on what they are actually proposing, though, it wouldn't seem so far off the mark. Most people have never stopped to think that it is precisely moments and debates like this that poisoned every culture that went down the path of darkness in history. It is otherwise "good men" who propose barbaric things that took them there.
(Inspired by Joe Carter's recent post on torture.)
Well said, CM.
Many think torture is justified in this country, including most of the Republican presidential canidates. Not terribly Christian of them, is it?
Also, no one can seem to want to answer the quesion why is it ok for us to torture, but barbaric when someone else does it? Because we're the good guys, maybe?
I thought we were the good guys because we were above the tactics of our enemies...
Also, no one can seem to want to answer the quesion why is it ok for us to torture, but barbaric when someone else does it? Because we're the good guys, maybe?
They can't answer it because they think being good is about who you are rather than what you do.
It is morally dishonest to equate the water boarding of 3 people(only semi hard number I have ever seen/found), with the massive rape/tourter of thousands of people. It is also morally dishonest to equate the ‘torture’ of a few; sleep deprivation/music/minor temp changes are not forms of torture. I have never understood how someone could equate the treatment of less then 1000 (830ish was the last semi-hard number I heard) at guitmo, where they are treated, and feed better then they were anywhere else, is considered torture, but a entire group that fights by hiding behind children, and shooting at people from Mosque, blowing up busses, and often in the MSM they are shown as the innocent. And what they, the AQ/Taliban do are not shown as acts of terror.
Clearly you missed the point there. If the United States Government allows torture to be used, it is a slippery slope. Waterboarding is descended from one of the techniques that was allowed to the Spanish Inquisition to root out those they were charged with finding. Do you want to say then that it is not torture? It doesn't matter if the federal government allows torture to be used only 3 times a year, and Syria allows it 3,000 times a year. That makes us different in degree, and not in kind, from a country like Syria. If you want to command people's respect, you have to be different in kind, and not degree. America has, for the last 100 years, gone down hill in a big way when it comes to not behaving like the very countries we fight. We cannot afford to continue selling out our principles for the sake of expediency.
This supposed "torture" is something we routinely do to our own troops during training. I was gassed in BCT. Pilots are water boarded in SERE. Many schools subject trainees to temperature extremes and sleep deprivation.
My definition of torture is a simple one. If you're unwilling to do something as part of your own training programs, then its too much.
I think you have completely missed the point of why SERE waterboards pilots. It is because of the fact that they will face torture like waterboarding, and need to be mentally disciplined in how to resist giving away state secrets. People from SERE have come out countering positions like yours that waterboarding is not torture. The very fact that they do it to our people is not a sign of it being acceptable, but a sign that our people need to learn how to deal with it!
We don't chop their heads off because they need to learn to deal with it.
We don't gang-rape women at self-defense classes to teach them how to deal with rape if they fail to defend themselves or get away...