Read this guy's story. His girlfriend was raped by someone she worked for. The boyfriend knew beyond a reasonable doubt that she was raped because she was so badly traumatized by the incident that she couldn't even really speak to the cops. So he went to the rapist's apartment and ended up killing him.
At what point does grace and forgiveness fall away, and the need for justice and retribution take over? Those that focus on grace and forgiveness so much tend to fail to account for the brutal realities of this fallen world, and that God still demands justice from those who inflict injury and death on their fellow man.
If a man came home to find his wife and children brutally murdered, do you think that Jesus would not be understanding if in a fit of rage the man took up the mantle of the avenger of blood? Instead of turning the other cheek, he shed the blood of the man who committed a crime against his loved ones that is, objectively speaking, a capital offense under God's law?
It says do not judge or we will be judged, and that our standard will be used against us. I know in my heart that I would have probably done the same thing. The only thing that would have held me back is the knowledge that I would probably get arrested, and that that would be the last thing she'd need at such a horrible time in her life. I see cases like this, and I can genuinely sympathize with what had to be going through the guy's head.
I can't help but wonder at times whether or not part of the reason that Christians are losing so badly in America's culture war is that Christians are stuck on stupid with forgiveness and grace, and have lost their edge on taking up the sword to defend the innocent. We forget that part of the implied responsibility of the peacemakers is that they will bear the responsibility for defending those too weak to defend themselves, and to right the scales of justice whenever an injustice has been committed. That is why I cannot find this man guilty of a crime worth sending him to prison for 16 years.
At what point does grace and forgiveness fall away, and the need for justice and retribution take over? Those that focus on grace and forgiveness so much tend to fail to account for the brutal realities of this fallen world, and that God still demands justice from those who inflict injury and death on their fellow man.
If a man came home to find his wife and children brutally murdered, do you think that Jesus would not be understanding if in a fit of rage the man took up the mantle of the avenger of blood? Instead of turning the other cheek, he shed the blood of the man who committed a crime against his loved ones that is, objectively speaking, a capital offense under God's law?
It says do not judge or we will be judged, and that our standard will be used against us. I know in my heart that I would have probably done the same thing. The only thing that would have held me back is the knowledge that I would probably get arrested, and that that would be the last thing she'd need at such a horrible time in her life. I see cases like this, and I can genuinely sympathize with what had to be going through the guy's head.
I can't help but wonder at times whether or not part of the reason that Christians are losing so badly in America's culture war is that Christians are stuck on stupid with forgiveness and grace, and have lost their edge on taking up the sword to defend the innocent. We forget that part of the implied responsibility of the peacemakers is that they will bear the responsibility for defending those too weak to defend themselves, and to right the scales of justice whenever an injustice has been committed. That is why I cannot find this man guilty of a crime worth sending him to prison for 16 years.
This is something I struggle w/, as well. For instance, what if someone murders your wife/children & gets a slap on the wrist; or worse, eludes justice on a technicality? When the legal authorities abrogate their God-given obligations, is it a right & duty of the citizens to step up to the plate & see that justice is served? We also have pragmatic reasons for taking the question seriously; if a man murders & goes free, he's far more likely than not to commit murder, again. It's a real dilemma, & one about which I'm unsure where the correct answer lies.
I'm all for forgiveness and grace.
That's why I'd forgive the guy who avenged his girlfriend. ;)
Honestly, Mike, forgiveness does not mean rolling over and playing dead. Jesus did that for us. And though we would be forgiven for whatever we do. We are to try to be that way. Forgiving.
Does that mean the guy shouldn't go to jail?
No.
Even in scriptures the woman is supposed to cry out.
She didn't.
Hence the dilemna.
Now if this was Israel over 2500 years ago.
It's okay.
My question is this.
What if, again I say if, the guy who was killed didn't actually do it?
And if he did, he should have been prosecuted according to the laws of the country.
We can't just make them up as we wish, no matter how satisfying it may seem.
I completely understand the guy doing the killing. As well as the guy doing the raping. I just don't agree with either one.
Why do you continue to think that forgiveness means stupid?
Because that is where a lot of Christians take it. Just look at all of the hand-wringing that happened when Karla Fay Tucker was denied clemency. Christians often forget that God's grace is not a pass that gets people from having to face justice for the harm that they cause their fellow man. Too often I've argued with Christians who don't understand that the concepts of divine grace flat out do not apply to the secular legal system, and that if they want to bring in grace and mercy they need to do so within the context of a larger Judao-Christian understanding of justice within a legal system and secular society.
What I see is a society where secular and religious alike feel some sort of cathartic release when they're "merciful" toward serious criminals. America frequently ignores justice both by not punishing the guilty the way they should be punished, and by not caring whether or not innocent people have gotten caught up in the legal system.
I think I've come to realize that if I have any gift of the Holy Spirit, it's probably a fine-tuned sense of justice.
When I worked as a judicial clerk, we had a case where some thug robbed and murdered a Nigerian student who was running a check-cashing scheme. The consulate spoke with the victim's father who said that as a Christian, he forgave the killer and would leave the sentence up to the court, whereupon the judge sentenced him to 15-to-life.
I think that's the proper intersection of forgiveness and secular justice. The father let it go in his own heart and left it up to the courts to do their thing.
I don't think I'm there yet. I'm pretty sure I'd kill someone who killed my wife and/or son if the law couldn't get them, despite the fact that I believe that we as Christians are forbidden to seek vengeance (Romans 12:19).
Justice is good. And as long as you want it used on you, keep going.
But if you believe in grace, and you must since you know Jesus gives it to you, then share it with others.
I'm not saying roll over and play dead, just remember the parable of the unforgiving debtor. And remember how much you have been forgiven. Share it. It's a command. ;)
I think both grace and justice can coexist without contradiction. If someone steals your car and destroys it, you are to forgive them (grace), but they are to be punished by the state (justice) for harming you. Part of God's grace is that He gives us a government which will dispense justice (Romans 13) so that we are able to be gracious toward our fellow man.
It's bothered many Christians who've talked to me in the past when I've responded to their snarks about the golden rule by saying, "if I behaved like that toward someone then I fully well would deserved to be treated badly, now wouldn't I?!" My philosophy toward fighting is equally disturbing to them. It's that you don't lay a hand on someone unless either you have to, or you can live with yourself regardless of what ends up happening. If neither applies, you have no business even shoving someone. As much as you may see me talk about justice and be willing to dispense it at times, I am actually in practice something closer to a pacifist.
Mike,
We're closer than you might think on this stuff.
Just watched Braveheart again this week.
I totally empathize with him.
Funny thing is that when his wife dies, all I can think of is Janis Joplin singing, "Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose"
Glad that swords and free people aren't allowed to roam free in the Senate. Not that the Senators would have anything to fear. (Just in case they read this and want to send me to jail.) ;)